Galley Brag #6
Nic Marna on making Queer Book Content, meaty ARCs, and romantasying the litfic novel <3
Just an FYI that this interview took place *right* before the “TikTok ban”…so we talk a little bit about it and you can also likely tell from the joy in our voices that this was a convo that happened before the inauguration… : /
EK: How many book merch hats do you have at this point?
NM: That's such a great question. Honestly, probably over 10, but I only ever wear this one.
EK: What is that? The Pickle—?
NM: It's Sweet Pickle Books.
EK: Is that the TikTok thing where you can swap in a book for a pickle?
NM: Yes. <laugh>. But I knew about it forever ago. It just became a thing. But I've had it for so long and I just really like the color, honestly.
EK: Okay, so you're an original influencer. Been there, done that. <laugh>.
Well, thank you so much again for doing this. You’re the first BookTokker I've talked to, and I’m really excited because I feel like publishing is so weirdly segmented. I feel like I've had experiences where I've talked to indie booksellers and they're like, we have no idea what you're doing. And I was like, I don't know what you're doing. And I'm like, why is this happening? Anyways, do you want to start by introducing yourself and your role in the publishing ecosystem?
NM: Yeah. <laugh>, I think it's a complicated question...
EK: It could be many things!
NM: Yeah, it’s definitely many things. Well, so my name is Nic. I’m a writer, and I’m a book lover, which led me to create content about books online. And so I am everywhere online that feels important. Book Binch is my handle. I have a newsletter called Milking It, which is really fun.
I think if someone were to boil me down, it would probably be like, I make content about queer books. That's kind of the gist of it. Over the summer, I also published an anthology of queer writers that I’m friends with. So yeah, that's kinda my whole thing. And then I've just been on this weird TikTok journey…
EK: So yeah, say more on that. I saw that you were interviewed for that article for USA Today. It felt like the first times I saw anyone actually acknowledge it. Like, it's a weird thing where even people in the marketing department at Harper were like, apparently there's this thing called Lemon8…? Have you heard about this? It's literally just TikTok. And I'm like, I think if TikTok’s gone, that's gonna be gone, too. It seems like everyone is in denial and is like, we'll see what happens!
Do you think it's gonna stay? What’s your take on it?
NM: I don't know if I have an idea of what's gonna happen with the app itself because of the ever-changing political landscape….
EK: Soooo true. <laugh>
NM: I don't know. And I'm in Canada, so like, technically….
EK: Oh wait, so true.
NM: Yeah, it doesn't technically affect me, but they did shut down their offices here, so who's to say what's gonna happen. But like, all of my mutuals, I feel like everyone's scrambling. No one knows what they're gonna do. We’ve known about it for so long, but no one's prepared for it. I've been on Substack for a long time now, but like, do I want to go to YouTube? Not really. Because the thing about TikTok for me is that it doesn't feel like capital C, Content Creator.
Like, I am literally just talking to my phone in a casual way.
EK: YouTube feels like more of like a production?
NM: Yeah, and that can work for some people. I just don't know if it's gonna work for me long term.
EK: Are Instagram reels transferable in any way? I truly know nothing. But I am so curious because I was talking about this with
, like of …NM: Love. She's so smart.
EK: Anyways, she was talking about how she's only on Substack and the idea of genres or types of books performing differently depending on the platform.
I don't know, I think I'm just so intrigued by the fact that BookTok feels like such a behemoth. There’s replications of it—like on Instagram, Substack, Twitter—but it feels like a different beast. What do you think makes TikTok so different?
NM: I think it all comes down to discovery. I work in marketing, so for me social media has always felt like a tool. I think a lot of people have the problem where they can't separate themselves from social media, but that’s never been my issue because I've always used it as a tool. I’m used to looking at metrics for my job.
So that's kind of how I feel about social media. And so the transferring content, cross posting, all that stuff is just like, you kinda have to do it. Like, you should be posting everything that you're posting on TikTok, on Instagram <affirmative>. Even though I’m like, I don't think it translates…
But yeah, you kinda have to do it. In terms of content that performs better, it really has to do with discoverability. With TikTok, you're actually going after the people that are outside of your scope, in an interesting way.
EK: That makes sense. The Instagram Reels algorithm is also just so dark. I'm really trying not to be on social media, but it's hard. But yeah, it's so interesting with the BookTok of it all, 'cause one of the things it created— and now I finally hear agents talking about this—is the idea of micro influencers being so much more important than influencers.
It used to be a thing where it's like, oh, we have to send this book to the person with the biggest following. But what’s actually more important is when someone has like a thousand or so followers but really specific taste. TikTok—from what I understand—slots everyone into these micro communities, and that actually builds more of a parasocial relationship between the creator and the consumer. Instead of someone trying to appeal to everyone, people will be like, I only read queer fiction, I only do horror written by women, etc.. and there's a very dedicated and fervent audience for that. Does that feel right?
NM: Yeah, I would say so. I think it's like...
EK: <laugh>, you also don't have to have all the answers, but the fact that you work in marketing means that maybe you do...?
NM: No, I mean it's really interesting. I have a lot of mutuals who have huge numbers on TikTok and they got those numbers because of one viral video where they were trashing a book.
Or they had these little tiny viral moments that put them in front of a lot of people that don't necessarily have a buy-in to what they're doing. The audience that I grew—which that sounds gross to say it like that—but like the people that I connected with, all that happened gradually over time. There was never a moment where it spiked up in a big way. And to me it always felt like a positive space to talk about books. I know that's not the case for a lot of people. I have friends who closed their accounts because they got viral over a thing that happened like three years ago and they actually don't care about that thing anymore...
EK: Like, you get very easily pigeonholed into something and then have to be like, okay so now my thing is I have to be really mean about books every time or something?
I always talk to people in publishing about this, but I've been in publishing for over five years, and I feel like my relationship to books as a consumer and a reader has changed drastically. How long have you been doing this for and how has "book content" shifted your relationship to books and reading in general?
NM: I guess like three or four years now? I feel like I got in pretty early. And I've definitely seen it change and evolve, and I've seen people come in and really just give it their all on a specific book that is super popular and grow a following that way.
How has it changed my relationship to reading?
EK: Like do you feel like you're reading more or less? Do you feel like there's any sort of decrease in pleasure for reading because you're like, okay, I need to log this versus it feeling like a more organic thing? For me, it's hard to divorce reading from my work, even if it's something not for work. But if you have a pure relationship with reading after all this time, I really commend you for it.
NM: I definitely read a lot more. I would say what has changed my relationship to reading generally speaking is writing. Because I write longform now, that has sort of changed my relationship to reading because now I look at a book as a puzzle or I look at structure, and I'm way more interested in craft and stuff.
So I think that has changed my relationship more than talking about books online. Talking about books online feels pretty separated from...
EK: Sorry this cat is–
NM: Oh what a cutie!
EK: I know, she's so cute. Her name is Trouble.
NM/EK: Well, yes!
EK: But yes, that totally makes sense. Well, it seems like you make a concerted effort to be like, okay, let me like read some backlist; let me dedicate some time to reading the work of this author. But then you're also getting in galleys all the time.
How many galleys do you typically receive? Is it more of a thing where you'll request something, or do you feel like you're buried and stuck in the new release escalator of like, okay I need to pivot to reading like the biggest, newest, hottest thing now...
NM: I rarely request books, which is interesting. And I usually don't get them when I request them.
EK: Really!?!
NM: Which is...yeah! But well, again, I'm in Canada and like…
EK: So true, so true.
NM: For some reason we're a blind spot for publishing because either it's super indie or they'll be like, well, actually we're not sending books there. But I don't feel like I'm owed anything. Even though I've done a lot of free work for the publishing industry. Like I don't get paid on TikTok because in Canada we don't get money from posting....
EK: Whoaaa. That's so interesting, 'cause I was thinking of asking about that, but I didn't want to be rude. I'm always down to share my salary, but I know that’s not always the case for people.
But there's literally no monetization in Canada on TikTok? That's crazy.
NM: Zero. Dollars. The only thing that I can make money on is partnerships. Like, brand deals. But there really is no money in publishing.
EK: Really!?!
NM: Like again, I've worked in marketing, I worked in beauty for the longest time. And the amounts that we would pay these people is like...astronomical. And those people would have smaller followings than I have now. And so I'm looking at it like, right. Well <laugh>, I don't know. But yeah, I don't do it. I don't do it for money.
EK: You do it for the love of the game. But, I mean good for you! And like, I don't know, maybe there's something pure in that because you don't feel as beholden to something. Like you aren't like, oh I'm losing money 'cause I'm not talking about X, Y, Z book even though I don't care about it. There really is so little money in books, so there's really such a cap on what publishers can and will do.
But then it's interesting 'cause I think what happens is people only see the crazy antics that publishers pull, but they’ll maybe only do that for one book a year.
And it's like...does that even do anything? I'm always curious 'cause it's like, I don't know, books are expensive! Like, I don't really buy books because I really can't afford to buy books unless I'm like, okay, I'm gonna treat myself to a paperback or something.
But like, if you're not getting stuff in, do you feel like you are not as tied to like, okay this is the book everyone has; this is the status galley. It's more like, okay, what's on my TBR? Who am I following? Etc?
NM: To answer one of your earlier questions, which was like what content works and what doesn't. A good example is Intermezzo. Obviously everyone wanted to talk about that book. Everyone wanted to read that book. That's a galley that I emailed for...and I did get.
EK: Okay, slayyy.
NM: I mean there are like, eight people in Canada. <laugh>. And so I did get it and I did read it and that's one of the only times that I've posted something like that “in the moment.” I was interested in it, especially from a craft perspective, so that's mostly what I talked about. But I did make that video at a specific time and I was like, oh, I should be doing this; this makes sense.
NM: But other than that, if I'm interested in the book then I'll read it, but in terms of galleys, like I get so many that I'll have to tell my neighbors if I'm leaving the house for the weekend because then they'll have to bring them in. Maybe like three or four—?
[doorbell rings]
NM: That's probably a galley right now...wait one second.
EK: Oh my god, live!!
NM: I'm actually gonna...
EK: Go go, go!! <laugh>
[Nic leaves and comes back]
NM: Oh my god. Wait, that's soooooo...
EK: Oh my god. Wait, shut up. I have to take a picture. Wait, hold it up. Oh my God!!
That's so crazy. I was literally just gonna say, you need the hat.
NM: I think a hat is in this...
EK: Gorgeous! This is so crazy. Okay, so you do get stuff.
NM: Yes. <laugh>. I do get stuff.
What was I even saying? Oh, how many galleys I get. Yeah, I do get a lot of books and I mean June is a busy month…
EK: I mean, same! <laugh>
NM: Yeah, it's just weird because the relationship that you and I have, I don't have that with most publishers. Like, they don't really talk to me.
EK: Yeah. Well,
—whom we love—is the one who sort of turned me on to BookTok. She’s such a generous person and was someone who was like, yeah, I really just reached out and tried to form genuine relationships with people. And I think that’s very admirable, because publishing has such a fascination with BookTok books, but oftentimes it doesn’t feel like there's much of an understanding of what that means and who is making this content.And I think, in terms of BookTok, there's this real limit of understanding. It feels like a lot of people think that BookTok equals romantasy or some other big book you'd find in Target, but I think what is most useful about TikTok is what it did for like, Song of Achilles where you're like, okay, this is actually a book that maybe would not have been in Target otherwise… But then there's all of the things in that “retelling” trend that follow suit to try to replicate that success.
Obviously you are reading queer fiction and nonfiction, and that's your primary scope, but because you're reading so much, do you feel like you’ve become more aware of these trends or are you just trying to purely find books and authors that are interesting to you?
NM: The latter for me, for sure. I have seen some trends, but I'm more on the literary fiction side of BookTok. The latest that I can think of is like "unhinged girly book," or wait, what is it? I don't even know what they're actually calling it now...
EK: "Sad girl lit" or whatever. It seems within literary fiction there's, yeah, sad girl lit, like dark academia. Like there's some sort of micro tropes or trends…
And I think the thing with romantasy...I don't know if you read that New Yorker article about the romantasy drama, but there's been so many smaller, more genre presses that have been doing this kinda thing forever, and I think, to a certain extent, mainstream publishing is trying to catch up to it.
Over the holidays I feel like I saw so many agents and editors being like, okay, I'm gonna try to read Sarah J. Maas or whatever, and some of them enjoyed it and some people didn’t. But more than enjoying the finished product, I always come back to like, if you had received this submission five years ago, would you have even looked twice at it?
And I think, for me, I struggle to know if I would be able to tell whether something is like bad good or just bad bad. But then again, my role is not only to assess books in terms of its immediacy, but also think about the longevity of it. Like, publishing a book takes a long time, and so I have to ask myself, is this thing still gonna be interesting and cutting edge in two years plus?
NM: I don’t ever want to knock those genres—and I know that's not what we're doing—but the people that I know who have gotten romantasy book deals pretty immediately… I mean, I've read a lot of them and they are good. But I'm just fascinated by the route that they're taking being so much easier than the route that I'm taking with writing literary fiction…
I mean, I’ve had conversations with agents that are like, people aren't gonna care that you have a following, or people are going to see it as a negative or...
EK: I feel like that’s not true, but we could talk about that offline. I think everyone is just trying really hard to figure out how to make something work. Like, even before BookTok, there've always been cycles of interest that come and go, and it's so hard to predict. There were times when everyone was into books that were really dark and then the pandemic happened and everyone was like, I really can't read about anything dark.
EK: Or like, there were all the pandemic novels that were very claustrophobic or used that isolation or retreat as a starting point, but then that felt stale pretty quickly. And then there are the subjects that come up where you can see that something's in the zeitgeist, like, cli-fic, apocalyptic fiction, or, you know, books about AI...
Like you can tell what's in the public consciousness, but no one really knows where that's gonna go. I've talked to people who are like, I sent this book out on submission five years ago and it was about technology or AI or something. And everyone was like, oh, this is way too speculative and futuristic. And then, a few years later, they did another round of submission and everyone was like, oh, well this has already happened <laugh>.
And so, with the “writing to trends” thing, it's not really possible because there's no way of predicting the future...
But it was interesting in that New Yorker piece where the romantasy writers were following the hashtags in real time of what people were responding to and then writing to that. But I think that's something that can only really work in digital/self-publishing where you can publish something instantaneously if you want.
NM: ...and it does work.
EK: ...and it does work! Because I'll look at the top selling books on like Kindle Unlimited, and I'll click on it and be like, this is so dark. It's a lot of questionable consent or like, weird beta, omega shit. And I’m like, I don't think we can publish it. Do you want me to? I don't think so…
NM: From my understanding, the feedback that I've gotten so far is like, this is really great, but can we make the main characters vampires or whatever?
EK: I think the thing that's funny–'cause I've talked to sooo many people about the Sally Rooney of it all—is that obviously Rooney has become a behemoth but those books are really not about a lot. There's not a ton of plot. Like yes, there's structure, but what makes those books intriguing are the tensions and complicated relationships between friends and lovers. And that's like, so basic! But it works.
But the thing about working in publishing for a while is you can see the attempts at replication in real time. When I first joined publishing in 2019, everyone was trying to be Jenny Offill and it felt like all the literary work was experimental and segmented and stream of consciousness with no chapters and all this stuff. And then there was all the Ottessa Moshfegh, like dark, spunky unlikable female characters, whatever…
And then everyone got tired of that. And so, all it takes is for one thing to do well and then everyone's like, we need to find more of this.
I think, obviously there were people who had been following Torry Peters forever, but Detransition, Baby broke out in such a way where her next books are like, oh my God, this is now the brag. But like, as someone who works on a lot of queer and trans books, I don't necessarily see people after that success being like, we have *got* to do trans books!!
I also think it's especially apparent that you are chasing a trend when you don't have evidence that you've invested in that sort of book earlier. Like, if publishers were suddenly like, we have to publish books by this one famous tboy, but you don't have a list that reflects those voices already, it feels very much like a “gotcha” moment.
NM: Yeah, I was talking to my friend yesterday about Detransition, Baby. And I feel like I have to re-read it. I know that I liked it when it came out but it still feels like the only trans book that we'll talk about in the general public. And it's so fascinating to me that we're still in that position.
EK: It would be really interesting if it was published now, since I feel like Detransition, Baby came a little bit before Discourse reached a fever pitch where now when something's hot, I feel like the book can actually get swallowed up in the discourse.
And I think Torrey Peters is incredibly generous; she blurbs a ton of stuff and is very much in conversation with emerging writers. And yes, there have been critiques, but sometimes I get frustrated when I feel like queer/"diverse" fiction gets so much more scrutiny than a lot of books that are actively bad. And I get it–with the bad books, there isn’t as much room for people to be like, do better because the author wouldn’t care for those critiques anyways.
But like, isn't it huge that some random mom in Indiana is reading Detransition, Baby? You know, it's always hard to square in a business where the purpose is to sell books.
Well...I know we've been chatting for a while, but do you have any galleys besides what you just got literally a second ago that you wanna brag about or anything you desperately want to get your hands on?
NM: Well, I just got Stag Dance…
EK: Okay, brag.
NM:...which is exciting. And I also got The Lamb by Lucy Rose, which is...
EK: ...it's a Harper book!
NM: It's a Harper book, yes, but the UK art for the galley was just a slab of meat, like full page.
EK: Whoa.
NM: It was sooooo nice. I'm connected to, Lucy online, so I was like, Hey....
EK: Okay, I just Googled it and I see the UK cover now where it has a little bit of slab of meat but the arc is literally all meat?
NM: Correct.
EK: That's so crazy. They should have done like Lady Gaga meat dress and just given you meat in the mail...
NM: And honestly like they should have wrapped it in...
EK: ...wrapped it in a little meat bow.
It's funny 'cause I posted something about UK versus US covers, and everyone was like, UK covers are better. And I felt bad because one of my friends who is a cover designer at Harper literally was like, okayyyyy. And I was like, it's not you!! Because obviously covers are marketing, and I think sometimes there's really, wild, really inventive things that I'll see in cover rounds, and ultimately publishers make the call of like, this is what we think will work for this market, and I just think the US/UK are such vastly different markets...
NM: ...and the turnaround time is shorter in the UK, so they can do something that feels more relevant. I almost sent you a photo 'cause I was in the UK over the holidays and I saw Homebodies, and the UK cover for Homebodies is sooo cool. I mean I love the US one, too.
EK: I think I lose the most hair from the cover process; it's so anxiety inducing. Is there anything else you really want to get your hands on?
NM: I'm sure I'm forgetting…Oh, I mean I didn't even read the first book, but Sean Hewitt—I think he's Irish and wrote a queer memoir a while ago—but he has a novel coming out and I really wanna read it.
EK: Open, Heaven? It seems like he's written a bunch of stuff. Interesting. Do you have the new Ocean Vuong novel?
NM: No, naurrr....
EK: <laugh> Naurrrr
NM: …but I want it.
EK: Okay, putting out the call. Well, this has been great. I'm sure we could talk forever and I really appreciate your time. And also if you ever have questions about publishing stuff, I'm always happy to chat offline!
NM: I mean, I was ready to talk shit. I was like, let's fucking goooo.
EK: My thing is, I feel like it's hard working in publishing because it's hard to talk shit. I don't even rate things on Goodreads anymore unless it's five stars. Unless someone's legitimately a bad person, I know how much work goes into everything and I'm like, I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Like, I'm just trying to do good vibes...
NM: I mean, I don't know if you're open to suggestions of people to have on...
EK: Yeah, yeah, of course!
NM: My friend is publishing her debut this year. It's a memoir.
EK: Oh, fun. What's her name?
NM: James Rose, they're pretty big online. And they're really fun. Really nice.
EK: Oh yes, I see them. Oh, they look so familiar to me. Aw, cute. Yeah, fun! Wait, I wonder who's publishing it...?
NM: It's Abrams!
EK: Yeah, I know a few people that work at Abrams, so I was wondering if I know who is working on it…
Yeah, I've definitely seen this person. 'cause I watched her Nancy Mace videos about the bathroom stuff. Okay, cool. Yes, I'm so down to talk. I'll hit her up. I'll say, I need a galley. <laugh>
NM: <laugh>. No, literally I need a galley. I'm like, I've obviously read the book, but...
EK: ...but you need a galley.
NM: I need a galley.
EK: Okay, Fun! Well this was very fun. Yeah, send them my way and we'll talk shit another time, off the record.
NM: Thank you! Talk soon. Bye!
Personal Brags (aka what I’m gabbing about in my group chats!)
Honestly, I have been doing Bad, Big Time. But my cocomelon will always be Addison Rae music videos.
Really loved this Elle article on what book influencers are predicting for 2025 (“Can Influencers Predict the Next Big Thing in Books?”), and the fact that “representation in reading” was highlighted gave me the tiniest twinge of optimism. Especially with book bans being classified as “hoaxes”…
I read Emily St. James’ Woodworking and haven’t been able to stop talking about it. It made me ugly cry so much. I love trans people so much, and I have to remind myself that we have always existed and aren’t going anywhere, as much as this current administration is determined to erase us. That said, if you are a trans person reading this (whether or not you are open to yourself/others about it), I want to say that my door is always open (strategizing about name changes, how to protect yourself and get care, how to access community support + hormones, etc.). I definitely don’t have all the answers, except for the fact that transitioning changed my life in the best way possible, and I am forever grateful to everyone who helped me (and continues to help me!) along the way.
Loved this essay from
about reading fewer books…it’s not just me, lol! The idea of a reading cap is honestly v intriguing to me…Finally, new Josh Lora…always such a banger…was saving this one to read all week and it did not disappoint :)
This is a GREAT day for Nic Fans!!!!!
obsessed w this whole convo!!